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Topic: excessive end-play - repair or rebuild?  (Read 12802 times)

Offline Anthony

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excessive end-play - repair or rebuild?

« on: August 03, 2002, 09:02:44 AM »
Can you just pull the engine and put wider shims in, or does this call for a rebuild?

Offline Zen

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excessive end-play - repair or rebuild?

« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2002, 01:14:09 PM »
That depends on whether or not the bearing has loosened up in the case.  If the bearing is loose, you'll be having oil pressure problems . . . if not right now, you will soon!  The only fix for a loose bearing is having the case bored, and probably having the thrust surface cut down and installing an oversized bearing so it will sit tight in the case.

The best thing to do is pull the engine and check the end play with a dial caliper, or one of those attachments that will let you measure it with a feeler gauge.  Write down the exsiting end play.  Pull the flywheel, front seal, and the 3 shims.

Shove the pulley into the engine as hard as you can . . . this will push the bearing back in the case if it's loose . . . then pull the pulley/crank back out as far as you can.  Now see if you can move the bearing back in towards the case.  If you can move the bearing in any direction or see a gap between the back of the bearing and the case, you need to go ahead and tear it down.  You might get by for a short time with just re-shimming, but once it starts working loose, it snowballs . . . it takes years for it to start working loose, but once it starts, everytime you press the clutch it gets a little looser . . . the looser it is, the faster it gets even looser.  Once it starts wearing the case, you'll start loosing your oil pressure around the back side of the bearing instead of forcing it in to the crankshaft.

But, if the bearing is still tight in the case, re-shimming it to the proper end play will probably extend the usefull life of the engine many, many miles.  Take your original measurement and see how much you need to add to bring it back down under .006" . . . I shoot for .004".  I think the actual specification is .008", but why start at the upper limit?  Measure your existing shims, and I would try to replace the thinnest one with one that's thick enough make up the differance.  Put the flywheel back on and torque it down . . . but don't install a front seal yet.  Double check your end play to make sure it's correct.  If it is, remove the flywheel, install the seal and put the flywheel back on, toruque the gland nut and it should be good to go for several more years.



Edited By Zen on 1028394960

Offline Zen

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excessive end-play - repair or rebuild?

« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2002, 09:29:20 AM »
I double checked my end play measurements last night (I finally found where I stashed my Bentley manual!!!) . . . The maximum wear limit is .006" NOT .008"  The new setting should be made between .003" and .005" (try for .003", not .004" as I mentioned in my earlier post.  

My Bentley book doesn't mention anything about line boring the case . . . in fact, the only referance to checking the condition of the case is a picture with a caption below it that points out the bearing dowel pins and says to make sure they are tight in the case.  I have the Bentley "Owner's Service Manual" which is an abridged version of the original Shop Manual . . . I really should break down and buy a Shop Manual.

Just another thought on end play and a loose bearing . . . if the bearing is moving in the case, you can lock the flywheel to the bearing so tight it will lock the crank down, but if the bearing is moving in the case, you'll still have measurable end play.  If the bearing is loose, I don't think I'd mess with the shims . . . I'd either run it like it is and see how long it last (might last a long time if you baby it and don't do a lot of stop and go city driving) or tear it on down and have the case bored.

By the way Anthony, does it still have the original 1300?  If so, that's one of the toughest air-cooled engines VW ever built . . . not the most powerfull, but one of the toughest.   :)

Offline Anthony

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excessive end-play - repair or rebuild?

« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2002, 07:30:52 PM »
All the manuals are pretty specific about using 3 shims.  I need to use more than three.  Is this going to hurt anything?

Offline vwherb

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excessive end-play - repair or rebuild?

« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2002, 09:29:52 PM »
I don't know the reason why but I've always been told you can't use more than 3 shims.  The shims are available in different thicknesses.

Offline Zen

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excessive end-play - repair or rebuild?

« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2002, 08:35:58 AM »
I used to work on Sulzer Weaving Machines (a Swiss made loom) here at work.  I remember one of the shafts in that machine had the same type setup, where the end play of the shaft was set by using different thickness of shims . . . and there were three shims there also.  It's been over 12 years since I've worked on a Sulzer machine, and almost 20 since I went to Sulzer school, so I don't remember the reason for using three shims (if I ever really knew in the first place), but, there were three of them . . .

There were other similarities between a Sulzer machine and a VW too.  To adjust the speed of the Sulzer you move shims around in the main drive pulley to adjust the depth where the belt runs, in effect making it a larger or smaller diameter pulley.  The same setup adjusts the tension on a VW generator belt.

So, I would have to make a semi-educated guess that using 3 shims to set end play on a shaft is common European engineering.  I don't know the reason off hand, but I would be willing to bet that if you talk to any European mechanical engineer they will be able to give you an answer . . . and I'll also bet that there answer will make a lot of sense.

Offline Anthony

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excessive end-play - repair or rebuild?

« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2002, 06:26:29 PM »
Well, those shims have to take the pressure when you push the clutch, and there's oil in that part of the engine,so I wonder if you use too many if there will be problems with a lack of oil flow between the shims.  You know, if you have .004 clearance between 5 surfaces (three washers, the flywheel, and the bearing), thats .001 gap each for the oil, but if you had more gaps, (say, eight) and the same clearance, there would be less space for the oil to flow between.  I'm not sure what happens then, it's just a guess.  Possibly bad things.

Offline Anthony

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excessive end-play - repair or rebuild?

« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2002, 12:03:55 PM »
So, I put the three widest shims I had in the case to tighten it up as much as I could.  It's closer, but still about .015 off.  I put the engine in, and it won't turn at all.  I also can't wiggle the pulley to get any endplay, like I still could after I did the shims.  The clutch is tighter and there's no play in the pedal.  I wonder if the flywheel is touching the bellhousing?  Or could there be something else I'm overlooking?  There didn't seem to be any problems aligning everything when I put it in and I'm pretty sure the input shaft lined up fine.  I guess it's coming out again, becaue I can't see anything wrong on the outside!  I'll probably loosen it and pull it out a teeny bit to see if that makes it turn first.  :angry:
Suggestions?  Guesses?

Offline Zen

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excessive end-play - repair or rebuild?

« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2002, 12:57:11 PM »
Does it have a 6 volt flywheel and starter?  If not, and it's still the original transaxle it has to be clearanced for the 12 volt flywheel . . . the common way to do this is start to install the engine and turn it over using the pulley nut as you tighen it up.  The hardened teeth will cut away the small amount of the soft tranny metal necessary.

What may have happened is now the flywheel is back just a little further than it has been, and just a tiny bit more metal needs to be cut out . . . loosen the bolts and see if frees up.  If it does, tighen the bolts very slightly, turn the engine, tighen a little, turn a little  . . . untill it's tight.

Offline Anthony

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excessive end-play - repair or rebuild?

« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2002, 12:40:29 PM »
It should be 12 volt, unless someone just put the wrong one on.  I'll try loosening it and see if that  helps.

Forget about what I said about oil between the three shims earlier.  That sounds kinda silly, now that I think about it. ???

Offline Zen

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excessive end-play - repair or rebuild?

« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2002, 12:15:22 AM »
I don't know, it doesn't sound THAT silly.  I fact, it seems like I've heard that somewhere before . . . maybe at Sulzer School 20-something years ago . . . maybe on a post on a forum somewhere . . . I don't know.  But at any rate, that does sound like a reasonable explaination.

Offline Zen

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excessive end-play - repair or rebuild?

« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2002, 12:29:20 AM »
Here an interesting discussion on the subject:

An old "End Play" thread from the R.A.M.V.A. Newsgroup

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