adjusting lifters

« **on:** April 29, 2007, 01:44:35 PM »

Hiya,

1st, a big thanks to you Scenic City folks who let me crash at your campsite during B9 a couple weekends ago- very cool of ya! Next time I'll bring more homebrew.

2nd, I'm attempting to adjust the hydraulic lifters- either I'm a complete idiot or something is wrong since I have more noise after 3x of trying. Engine is a 2.0 FI stock setup.

Here's my method:

-- Ran engine until I could hear the lifters fill up.

-- Turn the pulley until the distributor rotor points towards the MARK on the top edge of the distributor Check pulley timing marks to find 0 degrees ie. TDC for #1. Pop the nuts, unscrew the adjusters; tighten by hand until slight resistance (presumed zero lash) is felt then turn the adjuster in 1.5 turns, tighten nut.

-- Turn the crankshaft pulley CCW 180 degrees (ie. rotor 90 degrees) and repeat with #2 cylinder (right rear valves).

3. Turn pulley 180 (rotor 90) CCW and do #3 cylinder (left front valves).

4. Turn pulley 180 and do #4 cylinder (left rear valves).

Anyone see a problem with my method?

What's the opinion regarding warming the engine up for 5min or so before adjusting- necessary or no? Any other tips appreciated!

Cheers, Mike
GVille, FL
79 Rivi 2.0 FI

Ret.Bugtech · « **Reply #1 on:** April 30, 2007, 12:02:09 AM »

Something magical happens to these Hyd lifters . I don't see any problem with your method of adjustment other than adjust them cold. It seems that sometimes they just won't shut up even with new lifters and push rods. I have converted alot of these things to solid lifters with no excessive noise. Those type-4 engines have a very tough bottom end and I don't see you having a oil pressure problem.
Try adjusting the valves cold and carry them in 2 turns( Factory bullitin) Let me know what it does.

« **Reply #2 on:** April 30, 2007, 02:39:53 PM »

Magical? Yikes... with the troubles I have it's VooDoo magik!

Thanks for the help.

Tried adjusting as suggested, the vehicle wouldn't start (crank but no firing), and cranking sounded really weird, kinda like a cat would if the cat were made of metal, meowing, and being squeezed very very tightly.

Redid it to 1 3/4 turns, the engine tries to fire and still sounds like poop. Looks like I'm heading back to 1 1/2.

How would one tell if the distributor is out of index? I'm assuming #1TDC is 0 on the pulley and with the rotor pointing somehwere near the notch- I've no other knowledge of how to verify it othewise.

Thanks, Mike
GVille, FL
79 Rivi 2.0L FI

Ret.Bugtech · « **Reply #3 on:** April 30, 2007, 04:55:20 PM »

Hmmmm. Are you sure you are on # 1 cly ? I have seen these dist. be 180 degrees out. Are you sure you have Hyd lifters? It could have been changed to solid lifters.
To find out if the engine is on #1 cly, take your valve covers off , turn the engine until the rotor points to the notch on the dist. This SHOULD be real close to # 1.( You also can sit the dist. cap on to see if the #1 plug wire is close to the notch or end of the rotor). I suppose you do know where #1 cly. is ( right side forward looking in ). With the engine at TDC grab a Buddy and have him/her rotate the engine back and forth about 3
inchs.past TDC both sides with a wrench on the alt pulley nut ( add tention to the belt with your thumb so it doesn't slip) You watch the rocker arms on #1 cly. They shouldn't move a lick if you are indeed on #1 cly. You Move over to #3 cly and repeat the back and forth thing. #3 rocker arms intake and exhaust should be moving in and out . If that seems ok then at least the dist. isn't 180 degrees out. Make sure that the # 1 plug wire goes to #1 cly. If its pointing to #3 you can do a wire dance or if you want to do a short cut ,start you adj. with #3 then #4 then #1 then #2 as far as what the dist. is showing you.

The only way to check to see if the lifters were changed to solid is to take off one set of rocker arms along with the push rods and with a GOOD flash light peer down the tube to where you can see the top of the lifter. If you see somthing that looks like a wire snap-ring on the inner edge of the lifter, its Hyd. No snap-ring its solid and adjust to 6-7 thousandth.
If none of this works, you might be looking at a set of lifters or worse
Whew !! Let me know what you find.

VWGirl · « **Reply #4 on:** April 30, 2007, 09:02:55 PM »

did he mention this is a GEX engine with atleast a couple thousand miles on it (well beyond its life expectancy!)

sorry Mike... just had to add that in :razz:

Ret.Bugtech · « **Reply #5 on:** May 01, 2007, 09:10:59 AM »

Whoops !!! Hate to hear that. I have had several "run in's" with GEX over warrenty deals and had customers who were really P*%*ed off due to their new 1500 mile GEX engine taking a dump on them and not being able to get any help from GEX. How in the world do they stay in business?

VWGirl · « **Reply #6 on:** May 01, 2007, 09:18:53 AM »

Really my point in bringing it up was that they do funky things to their engines.

I've seen pics of people with unmatched case halves, unfixable engine leaks and pitted bearings in their less than 1000 mile GEX engines... with GEX regular troubleshooting is off in my books.

did you ever get the high temp thing figured out? You made it up to bugapaluza and back... of course your maiden voyage was also from chattanooga...

« **Reply #7 on:** May 01, 2007, 09:40:23 AM »

Quote from: "Ret.Bugtech"

Whoops !!! Hate to hear that. I have had several "run in's" with GEX over warrenty deals and had customers who were really P*%*ed off due to their new 1500 mile GEX engine taking a dump on them and not being able to get any help from GEX. How in the world do they stay in business?

I have heard the same thing from people up here, and that's all the way from Chicago area so it's not by chance. Just because their ad looks good in the book doesn't mean quality!

I heard when the engine finally blows and you send it to GEX, they call you and tell you that you overheated the engine and isn't covered by the warranty. They give you an option of, they will rebuild it for___, send it back to you(you already paid to send it to them once and then have to pay to have them send you the junk engine back) or that's it, we're done! Thanks for the business sucka :twisted:

« **Reply #8 on:** May 01, 2007, 10:00:00 AM »

Worthwhile points all around...

Currently the thought is that the 60lb compression on #1 cylinder is driving the high temps...

Yup. running the GEX, I got the vehicle knowing full well the implications of the poopy rebuild, but I'm still gonna try like heck to keep it running as long as I can... has 3K+ miles on it, with compression running 60, 90, 115, 115 and temps of about 350-450F and 13-15mpg on most days. I've toyed with the idea of renaming Neptune to Tick Tock, in deference to the GEX Time Bomb... when it dies I'll hopefully be able to use it as a core for a reputable rebuild.

Anywho, I decided to throw out the Bentley/ Haynes (not really), grabbed a Beer of Courage and reread the suggestions above, then do things in a more informative way for me, since spec isn't cutting it.

That said, here's what I did. Verified I was at #1TDC via the method described above (ayup), adjusted them all again to 2 turns past zero lash (which is really relative to how strong your fingers are and is difficult to quantify). Still no start/ fire, sounds like squeezing the life out of a meowing cat made of metal.

Adjusted lifters to 1.75 turns. Wanted to start, now sounds a bit like metal kitten caught in elevator doors.

Knowing all this, I decided to skip 1.5 turns (since it didn't seem to work), and try the other end of the spectrum, starting at 0.5 turn.

I set everything at zero lash, and ran it for 5 minutes to pump up the volume- er, lifters; beast fires right up, sounds good but very "clicky"...

Stopped, set #1 and #2 (at their respective TDCs) to 0.5 turn in. Ran it for 5 minutes again, set #3 and #4. Still clicky, but a bit quieter. Decide to jump ahead another 0.5 turn instead of 0.25 turn.

Stopped, set #1 and #2 (at their respective TDCs) to 1 turn in. Ran it for 5 minutes again, set #3 and #4. #4 definitely has a squishy exhaust lifter; bummer. Started it up, sounds fine, hear the lifters fill and mute then get terrible knocking noise. Stopped, popped off 3 and 4 cover, found #3 exhaust rocker loose even at TDC, so the rod must not have been seated correctly. Mucked around until I thought is was seated properly, set it to 1 turn in. Fired it up, sounds fine, idles great, set timing by ear/feel (until the new SVDA arrives). Drove it around for about 2 miles, feels solid and peppy (which means I've probably got the timing too advanced) and idles evenly.

So, any suggestions appreciated on whether I should adjust further... ?

I might try 1.25 turns and see if it quiets a bit more. I'm wondering if I have hydraulic lifters but rods for the solids... the rods look a bit thick to me but I don't know if hyd. rods VS solid rods were different in length as well as thickness... if so that might account for some of the wierdness. The rest (of the weirdness) I blame on GEX. Here's to hoping I see some improvement on #1 compression!

Thanks! mike

VWGirl · « **Reply #9 on:** May 01, 2007, 10:30:08 AM »

the hydraulic rods are thicker, as are the hydraulic adjusters.

is the 60/90 on the same head? so all of your valves seem to be the same length?

if you don't know, type 4 heads have a habit of dropping the valve seat. this tends to happen when they are running hot.

i had a recessed valve seat on one of my heads which accounted for the low compression in that cylinder. perhaps you could just replace 1 head and the engine would be happier?

the peppyness tends to come with advance... but depending on how advance i might just leave it... i seem to remember you had electronic ignition on the bus?

i really like your detailed posts!

« **Reply #10 on:** May 01, 2007, 10:44:05 AM »

hmmm... the info I have (since I was looking up diameters) is:

Solid lifter rods = 271mm long; 12mm ø
Hydraulic lifter rods= 262mm long; 10mm ø

from ratwell.com

If that info is correct, I'll bet my entire Flags of Foreign Countries Speedo collection I've hydraulic lifters and solid lifter rods... if not and VWgirl be correct, maybe I'm fine there.

Detail is my thing; I'm neurotic and vaguely OC- I blame my Mommie!

60/ 90 are #1/ #2 respectively... Hmm... valves appeared ok, but I suppose I should straighedge them w/ the rockers loose and see if they line up... now if only I had a spare head around!

VWGirl · « **Reply #11 on:** May 01, 2007, 10:52:12 AM »

i didn't know they were different lengths... but i know they are thicker!

as for the head, take a look on the samba classifieds... you could probably get a used head for cheap... however you take your chances with used.

type 4 heads arent cheap.

i got lucky and bought my set used on the samba for $200... i've got 20,000 miles on them now, so it was a pretty good deal

your bus should have square port heads on it, which are 79 busess only (tho i think they are the same on the aircooled vanagons?), but since you have that GEX... no telling which is on it. make sure you figure out which it is before you buy some more heads... if you even have to go that route

Ret.Bugtech · « **Reply #12 on:** May 01, 2007, 11:54:20 AM »

Man !! Who knows what you have going on. You shouldn't be having this much trouble adjusting valves and now things are changing ? But you have a GEX and I wouldn't drive that thing anywhere until I found out what in the heck is going on.
Be careful riding around with the timing not set correcty. This is instant death for air-cooled VW's no matter who built the engine.
60lbs ,90lbs is not acceptible.
VWGirl is very correct on the Type-4 engines dropping valves seats. They are well know for that little trick. This could be part of your problem since your adjustments keep moving. The seat can be loose in the head and not sitting down where it is supposed to.
If it was my GEX engine,it would be in the stand and come apart. I hope you can fix it from the outside,but I don't think so.

« **Reply #13 on:** May 01, 2007, 06:04:01 PM »

Hmm...

Quote

now things are changing

Not sure what you mean Ret.Bugtech... but hey like you said, it's a GEX.

I spent 9 months repairing every last thing on a 1984 Wolfsburg Westy (including the stupid connection for the fuel line at the firewall), never camped in it, spent about $7K in top notch engine, ancillary mechanicals and parts only to have it burn up before I had done more than drive it around town. Fire inspector declared te coil had blown it's top and triggered it. Consequently, I'm driving this GEX until it dies and enjoying the camper, or until I can afford a sweet rebuild.

Thanks to both you and VWGril for thought/ opinions!

Cheers, Mike
79 Rivi
GVille, FL

Gobusgo · « **Reply #14 on:** May 01, 2007, 10:08:26 PM »

I was going to reply, but everything I had to say has been said already.

:wink:

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